From a Cubicle Desk to a Multi-Six-Figure Business: Ellen Yin's Journey of Personal Branding, Strategic Partnerships, and Media Pivots

In today’s episode, we’re joined by the incredible Ellen Yin from Cubicle to CEO. Ellen shares her inspiring story of leaving the corporate world without a backup plan, building a multi-six-figure business, and leveraging personal branding and strategic partnerships to drive success.

Dive into this transformative episode as Ellen reveals her steps to creating impactful brand relationships, navigating business pivots, and scaling multiple revenue streams.

🎧 IN THIS EPISODE, WE TALK ABOUT 🎧

[02:40] - Leaving the Corporate Job: Ellen’s Bold Move

[06:12] - Landing the First Freelance Client and Building a Boutique Marketing Agency

[09:35] - Launching Cubicle to CEO Podcast: From Passion to Purpose

[12:18] - Shifting to Education and Mentorship: Scaling a Standalone Revenue Stream

[16:44] - Pivoting to a Media Business

[19:51] - The Essentials of Brand Partnerships: Content Creation, Distribution, and Endorsement

[21:50] - Overcoming Burnout and Rediscovering Joy in Work

[26:00] - Crafting Irresistible Pitches and Landing Brand Deals

[29:43] - Leveraging Personal Brand: From Pageant Wins to Media Coverage

[33:19] - Scaling Through Partnerships: Slow Funnels and Self-Liquidating Offers

[36:29] - Data-Driven Marketing and Intellectual Property in Brand Relationships

[39:02] - Ellen’s Multi-Faceted Revenue Streams: Angel Investing to Public Speaking

[42:15] - Innovative Campaigns: Small Business Grants and Market Research

[45:30] - Transforming Passion Projects into Profitable Ventures

[48:22] - Ellen’s Approach to Learning Through Experimentation

[51:50] - The Power of Creative, Relationship-Driven Brand Partnerships


🔗 LINKS 🔗
Follow the Hosts: @hannahmnieves & @maritzatobon
Follow Ellen: @missellenyin
Follow HN Haus: @hnhaus
Request an invitation to The Thrive Collective
Request an invitation to Maison

Transcript

0:00

Ellen, I am such a big fan. I have been in your community forever and a day, and I just, like, love everything about you. So I'm really excited that you're here with us and that you, also get to share with our community now. So it's really fun. So I know that you are the founder of From Cubicle to CEO. You have a podcast. Miss Oregon. That's amazing. That's so awesome. So I, you know, I would love for you to just kinda introduce yourself and tell us, you know, your background inclusive of that and just how you you got started. Sure. Okay. 2 minute story. Cubicle to CEO, that name of our brand is really inspired kind of as, like, a cheeky reference to my own journey as an entrepreneur. I worked in only one cubicle job, quit when I was 23, left after 10 months. I didn't have a backup plan. I had no intention of starting a business. I really left because the the role that I was in was not creatively stimulating to me, and I think a lot of you can probably relate to that. I'm I've never been that person that's like, I need to be the boss or I I need to have a business. It's more so if I feel creatively challenged, then I'm excited about a role. So anyways, I left with a without a backup plan and I was searching for other marketing roles. I've always professionally worked in marketing, and I ended up landing my first freelance client about a month into that journey. And then I thought to myself, okay. I feel like I have a set of skills I can monetize outside of a traditional job structure. So why don't I just continue to try to find more clients and see if I can replace my corporate salary from that? And that's really how my business started in 2018. So I built a, like, a boutique marketing agency for about 2 years, and then my podcast, cubicle the CEO, launched in July of 2000 19. At the time, totally a passion project. I didn't really have any long term vision for it. It was just something that I felt really excited about because if you've known me in my personal life ever since I was little kid, all I've ever wanted to do, my dream job is to be a television host and so of a daytime talk talk show. And so anytime I can interview people and get to know their stories, I was like, this is just a way for me to practice that skill set and get to meet really cool people. So anyways, that launched in 2 1019. Towards the end of that year, I had already started putting out, programs, digital programs, and I realized that my heart was much more in education and mentorship than it was in done for you marketing services. So I actually let go of all of my clients except for 1. If you notice a trend, I'm a very, like, all or nothing, jump really big, or don't do anything at all person. And so I cut that safety net for myself and, I started with just one program and scaled that as a as a standalone revenue stream until it was stable, like, in the multi six figures range by itself, and then I started adding in additional products. So now over the years, we we've served, I think, 14,000 or so entrepreneurs through our different products that we've had. And in 2022, like, late 2022, I did another big pivot where we still have an education arm to our business, but now we operate as a media business. So our podcast, even though it's not a paid product, our listeners can access it for free. We treat it like a product. It's really like the flagship center of our entire content ecosystem, and then we monetize, about 50% of our revenue. And Matt knows this because he knows my numbers intimately, but about 50% of our revenue each year comes from brand deals and paid partnerships, sponsorships of the like. And then the other 50% is a mix of, like, you know, our our education, digital products, speaking engagements, a few client services. I'll do some consulting on the side just depending on, you know, what's available. And then outside of my own business, I'm also an angel investor in 3 different women owned startups, all in very different industries. 1 is a beverage company, 1 is in the supplement space in health industry. And then the third one is a fintech company that connects founders with funders. So if you're seeking funds for your own business, it's a really cool angel investing platform. Wow. My journal is on the floor. Amazing. So I'm just curious, you know, because a lot of the conversations have been around like scaling products. We're gonna start there. Scaling memberships, you know, what would what was that like for you? Like any recommendations or like lessons that you've learned because you like started there and then you, like, turned your brand into a media brand. Like, any tips or recommendations there? Borrowed audiences all the way. That's how I scaled everything. And so, with that first program, I my first goal for it was how can I get it to$10,000 recurring months on its own? And at the time, I didn't have a very large audience. And so I relied almost entirely on partner campaigns and collaboration. So, essentially, I had a a 1 hour training that was a webinar that actually Haley helped me with kind of figuring out the contents of that webinar. It was really about shifting the 3 key mistakes or beliefs that service providers had around signing 1 on 1 clients, and that was what our program was for. It was helping service providers reach their first $10,000 month with 1 on 1 services. And so I took that training, and I went to a lot of people who served a similar clientele as me. So people who had audiences of freelancers and service providers, coaches, consultants, anything of that ilk. And I said, hey. I have this really valuable training that can help your people scale their revenue through these services. Maybe they service them in a different way. Like, maybe they were brand designers or maybe they were CPAs and accountants who helped or maybe they were lawyers, right, who helped on the legal side. So we all started the same client, but they didn't necessarily have a solution ready made for the monetization side of things. And so it became this perfect partnership because they looked like the winner no matter what because they were providing a free valuable resource to their people. I always made sure that anyone coming to our training would feel like they really left with a lot of value regardless of whether they did anything, from that point in in joining our program. And then with our partners, their only job was to promote the free training and get their people to the free training. So they didn't have any involvement at all in the sales portion, which made it easy for a lot of people to say yes because they were we were not asking them to send sales emails. We were not asking them to promote anything to their people other than a free training. So we would get people on the free training, use that as our sales mechanism, and then all of the post, sales sequence emails came from us directly. So for our partners, it was super hands off. We created all the marketing materials for them, helped install it into their system. So it was really they just showed up to have fun for an hour, and then they got paid, on the back end of that. So that's really how we kind of scale that first program. And then for our lower ticket products, which is really what grew our email list and, like, really upped our volume of customers, I'm a die hard believer in slow funnels, self liquidating offer funnels. Basically, when you have, like, a low ticket, let's say, 27 to $47 product front end with an order bump and one time offer. I think we got, like, 9,000 students through that in a single year's time. Run completely off cold traffic ads, and it was great because we were building our email list with buyers. That's really important to me. I always look for opportunities to get someone to transact with me on that very first interaction with us even if it's a dollar. Even today, all of our events that we do this year have all been like, if they were going to be a free event, we make them a pay what you want event because I want them to have the physical practice of purchasing from us, and it totally changes the relationship that they have with us. So that was really huge too in being able to scale. That's awesome. So tell us a little bit about transitioning from, like, digital products and things like that to also working with, like, partnerships? Like, how did you decide to do that? And was that kinda centered around your personal brand and, you know, what what did that journey look like? So I think that actually the best thing I did when pursuing, brand partnerships and being able to ask for bigger budgets from companies is I did not position myself as an individual influencer if you will. So I wasn't saying, hey. Do you wanna collaborate with me, Ellen Yin? I really tried to position Cubicle to CEO as its own entity that existed separate from me even though I I am the face and voice of much of the content. But because of that, it I think something changed in the way that, that brands perceived us in those conversations because I was not again, I'm was not an individual influencer coming to them and saying, hey. I wanna do, like, a $20,000 campaign with you. Right? It's like we have this community that you can tap into. And if you're looking to get in front of a very niche audience of small business owners, small business CEOs, founders, entrepreneurs, like this this is the community that your products and services are really going to be the right fit for, and here's how we can integrate you in a lot of different ways. And at dinner yesterday, I was talking to Britain about this. Like, a lot of people when they think about paid brand deals, they stop at pay pay posts essentially. Like, okay, what's my rate for a TikTok or, like, how much will brand pay me if I them on Instagram? That is really just scratching the surface of what you can do in brand partnerships. There's so many different ways you can integrate a brand into what you're already creating and doing. I can share some examples of that later on but that's what's really going to allow you to graduate from those, like, 500, a 1000, $2,000 deals to being able to do, like, 40,000, 50,000, $100,000 campaigns with brands. Oh, wow. I wanna dive into that. I'm so excited. This is so good. So, you know, you transitioned into positioning yourself as okay. Like, this is the media company. This is how we're working with brands. What were I'm just curious. Like, what were some of the first steps? Like, at this point, like, where was your podcast? Like, was it already in scale mode? Or It our podcast has been a slow grind. It is not. We are not an overnight success story. You know, I like I said, I started in summer of 2018 and save for a 1 month on purpose hiatus that we took from the podcast, I don't think we've missed a single Monday in 5 years. So it's like that's the level of, like, that is the rightness. That we have. Wow. Wow. And and last year, we actually did a test. We did double episodes. So every single week last last year, we produced 2 full episodes, Mondays Wednesdays. And so it is a huge commitment, but you have to be willing to play the long game in a content medium like that. Mhmm. So, yes, it was scaling, but not we've never been a hockey stick kind of growth show, which hopefully is actually encouraging to some of you because it's very rare in the podcasting space to experience that. Especially, my husband always jokes about that. He's like, you know, Ellen, if you just talked about a juicy topic like true crime or sex, your podcast would explode. And he's like and because I'm always like, oh, it's such a slow, you know, slow process. And he's like, well, you have to understand. You're kind of in many ways talking about a boring topic to, like, the vast public. Right? Like, it's not a super exciting topic for people except for, like, the 1% of the population that is an entrepreneur. And so just keep that in mind too when if you are looking at your own show and you're like, why is it not growing the way I want it to? Just realize, like, we may not be in spaces that are vastly appealing to the wide majority of the population, so you have to be okay with that, like, incremental growth. What was the second part of your question? So, like, the beginning stages of, like, formulating these partnerships. Yeah. Like, what does that look like? So we started really building within the companies that we already had natural relationships with, so companies that we use their products and services to operate our business, companies that maybe we were affiliates for, and trying to expand outside of the affiliate or built in ambassador programs that they would have. I think the key is to not wait for a brand to find you and come to you and say, what's your rate for 3 Instagram stories and a TikTok or something like that. Right? A lot of people wait for inbound brand request or even if they do pitching, they're still again playing in that pay per post kind of mentality. You really have to come to a brand with a unique campaign concept. And let me give you an example of this. A tech brand we worked with last year. They are an SMS texting community and, you know, the first thing you always wanna start with when you're working with brands is understanding what what would you define as a successful outcome of a campaign because it's actually very different for different types of brands and you never wanna assume. Some brands, it kinda shocks you because, like, I for example, I might say something like our email list is the number one conversion driver. Like, if you want leads or sales or trial sign ups, you have to have some element of email in whatever campaign we build out for you. And then there are brands who understand that on a logical basis, but they'll still come back and be like, you know what? We actually it's fine. We just wanna do podcast advertisement. And I'm like, okay. At that point, you're doing you're doing a a brand awareness play. Like, you have to understand different channels and different budget sizes support different objectives, and some brands are totally okay with that. They're like, we just want brand awareness. We actually don't care about the back end conversion metrics. Other brands are like, we literally won't work with you or pay you a single dollar unless we understand how this is gonna convert for us on the back end. So the first thing I do with any brand is understand what is your outcome that you want, and then I reverse engineer and build a package for them based on their budget that would support that goal the best. So I really, really do not recommend ever sending a media kit with, like, your rate sheets or trying to position anything a la carte because you when you do that, what you do is you position yourself as a commodity, and brands at that point are just looking at pure like, if you send them a rate sheet, they're gonna go, okay. You have 5,000 followers and you're charging x amount for a post. I'm gonna compare that with the other 100 creators around your same size. And if I can find a cheaper option, they're getting the deal, not you. At that point, you have no leverage. And so you really have to come to the table with an understanding of your own audience, how they react to certain types of content and in what frequency and how you're gonna drive them to an action. So with this tech brand, I asked them. Right? Like, what is your what is your big goal? And they're like, we really want to get new trial sign ups. Like, that's our number one outcome of a successful campaign. And so I was thinking about it. I was like, how can we get creative about getting people to onboard onto, a platform that maybe they weren't already thinking about using their business. Like, not everyone uses SMS text marketing, and and maybe that's not on the road map. So how do we get them to even try you out? So I came up with this idea of let's do a small business grant. We did a $1,000 grants for 2 people, and I was like, we can build that into the the package cost. Right? The $2,000 that we're gonna give away. And we did this really, great application that gave them so much data on the people that were applying, like what types of businesses they had, how many years they've been in business, what challenges were they looking, to solve with the content marketing platform. Like, it was that piece alone, just all of the market research they got from the applications was a huge value to the brand. And then what we did is in order for people to apply for the grant, they had to sign up for a free trial. That was, like, the prerequisite to fill out the form. And then we made it like an everybody's a winner situation where we only pick 2 winners, obviously, but everybody who applied for the grant would receive an exclusive text marketing workshop with the founders of this tech brand and also a couple other resources, like, I think they got, like, a special discount if they wanted to actually continue on to being a customer. And so it kind of felt like everyone had some skin in the game. And because of that, we were able to drive 100, I mean, 100 of new trial sign ups that normally if they were, let's say, going through Google Ads or Facebook ads, we were very competitive in terms of the amount they paid us. They probably would have paid equal or more using a different paid advertising channel, and our conversion rates were really high for trial to continued customers. So that's just one example of, like, coming with the original concept and pitching that to a brand rather than being like, this is what I charge for, like, one ad or something. I have to say before we ask your question, like, I really appreciate the creativity of this because back in my corporate days, I actually was on the receiving end. So I did all like the PR partnerships. And and we're talking like 50 to a $100,000 closet installations, you know. And 90% of the creators and influencers were just about like, okay, I want the free closet or I'm just gonna I'm charge you x and this is the nature of the relationship. But like I'm telling you, like, no one came with creativity of, like, oh, no. I wanna partner with you for the year. Yeah. This is what I wanna do to help this brand get into, like, you know, my audience where there's email, blank, blank, blank. And I think, like, that creativity alone is what really sets you apart. So I just, like, wanna reflect that back to you because I feel like 90% of influencers don't do that. Thank you. Yeah. And it's such a great example just of innovation in general, which I feel like you have always innovated or explored in your business. Like, you've had a brick and mortar. Right? I remember you had a space. I hear about that. A coworking space, which I'd love to talk about because the theme of our event is possibilities. Right? And it's like you've started your business. You've been on this journey. Right? And and now maybe you're feeling like you need to pivot or you're not sure, you know, what's next, But it's like how you always look for innovation, and you've done that, yes, through your businesses, but also even with your own marketing. Like, I know you run something where, you ask your community, they pay, like, a low ticket price, and then you will promote their lead magnets to your email list. So it's like you always find these really creative ways to, like, leverage what you have created, you know, for yourself to, like, find those possibilities. So can you talk to us a little bit about, you know, what keeps you inspired? You know, how do you, what drives that, like, innovation? And that wasn't this is, like, so a script that was No. It's okay. Actually, I don't know that much about human design, to be honest, like, very bare bare bare bones. But when I was talking to Hailey, she was telling me how my so I'm a Manny Jen as well. And my numbers, I think, are 35, and I believe I'm don't quote me on this. Again, not an expert, but I think the 3 means that I learned through mistakes. So for me, experimentation is everything. I'm not that person that's like, I need a road map of how to do a to z before I jump. It's more so I learn through the process of trying something and iterating on it. And so I've done lots of really out of the box things where people are like that. Like, why did you do that? Like, that doesn't seem like a logical next move. Like, I open, example, a coworking space in my town, a women's only boutique coworking space for, like, 2 years. I literally saw this, like, random house on Craigslist that was for rent and called up the landlord, did the tour in that same day. I was like, I'm doing this. Like, we're just gonna figure it out. I have no idea how to run a co co working, you know, business model. But it was so great because through that space, I was able to get my feet wet in, like, small scale events. Right? Because I had my own venue to host them in, I was able to test certain types of brand partnerships like product placements. That's another example of a type of brand partnership that a lot of people don't think about. How can you get physical products in the content or the spaces in which you, you know, are are in. So, like, for example, we had, like, you know, kombucha brands that we would, like, stock in our fridge or, like, in the bathroom, we worked with, like, tampons and pad brands. Right? We would work with different, like you can get so creative. There's so many different ways you can do product placement. The same is even true, in virtual content. Like, one of my favorite examples of a brand partnership is, I think it's Betches Media that does it. They have a podcast, and I'm forgetting the name of the podcast, but there's a segment called, like, thirsty or not, and STANLEY actually sponsors that. And what they do is, like, the hosts aren't talking about STANLEY. But during that segment, they're drinking out of Stanley's. It's always in sight of the camera, and so it's like this, like, subtle product placement. So I've thought about those things too. Like, how can we actually, one of my angel companies, they're a beverage brand, like I said. So part of our agreement is, like, 4 times a year, they show up, like, in our video podcast, like, somewhere in our placement. Right? You can do things. Yeah. No. It's really and, like, one time I even thought about, who did this? I saw someone do this. It was like they took a brand's logo and maybe QR code and hung it in a frame like an artwork, and it was hanging on their wall in their office and, like, it was in every video. And it again, very subtle, but it's like brands find value in that because it's it's that repeated exposure. Right? So, again, that's just like an example of how something that seemed kind of not intentional became a playground for my business in that way or even, you know, the pageant. Right? Like, this was my first ever pageant. I'm not a pageant girl by nature. Like, I thought this would be a fun bucket list experience. I wasn't planning to win, which is a huge honor, but the that even that has been a a you know, has opened doors. Like, because I went on a mini media tour after winning, I made a relationship with several TV stations, and one of those TV stations has now had me back as a regular monthly guest as a business expert, and I get and they every single month, my podcast gets exposure on an ABC station because of that. And so that's something that probably wouldn't have happened if I hadn't, you know, tried this other thing. So I love just getting your getting your hands mixed in different things and trying. Wait. I I have a follow up question, so Please. Okay. I'm gonna let you I'm gonna let you finish, Taylor. Hold on. Okay. So on that, right, because, you know, in the beginning of your business or throughout your business, you've been very intentional about driving the brand of cubicle to CEO. Mhmm. Now that you are a queen right? You've always been a queen, but now that you're, like, a beauty queen with a crown and all the things, you are in a sense you know, now you're leveraging your own personal Yeah. Brand as well. How, like, what is how are you feeding this, you know, back into the business? And then in a way, you're also making, like, that long time dream of, you know, having a talk show. Like Yeah. That's obviously next. So it's like, how how is this all, you know, playing together? And do you just let those pieces, you know, kind of fall into place? Or is there a strategy too behind this? I try to go into anything without a super strict agenda. I just like to stay curious. If you stay really curious, you can't really be disappointed because there was never a right outcome to begin with. Right? And so I I don't think like, for example, when I when I competed in this pageant, I was not thinking, like, 5 steps ahead. Like, oh, I'm gonna, you know, leverage this into whatever that would look like. But for me, it was like in that moment when I realized, oh, I have, like, a newsworthy because I was, like, I was the first Asian American to win this state title in 30 plus years, and so I was like and it happened during AAPI heritage month. And so I was like, oh, that's a newsworthy story that I can pitch to local media. And because of that, it spun into a different pitch to local media? And because of that, it spun into a different relationship. Right? So, no, it's definitely not always, like, from the get go that I have that vision. But what was the second part of your question? It was just how how is this now kind of fueling the business, you know, in your personal brand? So for example, like, this past weekend, it being the 4th July last week and then into the weekend, and then also me being 6 weeks out from our national competition for missus America, I was like, oh, I'm gonna do, like, a flash, America weekend sale. And I came up with all of these, like, pop up offers, like things that I have never offered before. Like, I offered, like, 2 sponsored, podcast episodes. Like, normally, we don't sell those or, like, what was one that was, like, flew off the shelves with us? Oh, like a newsletter ad. Normally, we don't sell things a la carte like that, and, normally, newsletter ads are being purchased by much bigger brands, like, as part of a holistic campaign. But for our community, we were like, we wanna feature you. Like, do you have a paid offer or a lead magnet that we could put in front of our audience? So we, like, made that available. And we did a bunch of these little pop up offers, and that was a huge sale over like, a huge cash injection that we kind of played off this theme that, again, it was kind of impromptu, but there's always ways I like to call it, like, stacking money. Anytime I'm doing something, I always try to think about it in a 3 60 ways. It's never just like one way to monetize. I'm always thinking what's all of the other ways I could monetize from this. So an example of that would be like, I was flying to Nashville to speak at a conference and I was like, okay. If I'm gonna be anyways, could I get a brand to sponsor me on stage and for an off stage activation while I'm in Nashville? So we ended up doing this, like, coffee meetup. They paid for all the coffee for all the attendees. They also paid me to host it, and I got to meet all of these new lit creatives and entrepreneurs in a city that I'm not from. And then, like, on stage, I repped their brand by wearing, like, their shirt under my blazer. Super easy. It cost me zero extra effort to do that. Right? But, again, it was like, how can you stack money? Because you're already getting paid to do this one thing, but then how can you also, on top of that, get paid in, like, 2 or 3 other ways. That's how my brain thinks about, like, everything that I do. So smart though because we have a friend of ours that every time she travels, she will always coordinate like a client dinner or something so she gets her whole trip, you know, basically covered. She's able to monetize. She's able to build deeper connections, but it's like piggybacking off of these things that you're already doing, which I love. So I wanna take a box and this is more like a granular question, like working with brands. Like, what has been really successful for you and just, like, nurturing those relationships? Because it really is all about nurturing relationships with brands because it's not just, you know, working with another entrepreneur. Like, you're working with, like, big, big entities, you know, that have these big budgets. So anything any tips on that? I think it really helps to be super data driven. I think they're not like, to your point being on the other side of things, they're not used to a lot of content creators. And I don't even necessarily think of myself, like, fully as a content creator, even though technically I am a full time content creator as a podcaster. But I think they're not used to people coming in with such deep understanding of marketing itself, which is a huge strength that all of you have, right, in in in working with brands compared to, like, a blogger who may not really exist in this space as much. Also, a unique thing that we have that a lot of content creators don't have is IP. All of you are experts in, like, a very specific vertical, so you bring intellectual property that can be leveraged in a way that maybe a fashion blogger doesn't have that same IP that they can bring to the table. And so I I feel like it really helps to nurture those relationships when I'm not afraid ever to start with a super small scope. I just wanna show them that I that we understand our on a very deep level. And if you give us x budget, I can almost predict exactly what that's gonna get you. Like, I'll know how many clicks it's gonna, you know, on average, it's gonna range. What what and I always try to compare it to something they're already doing. It's much easier to get someone to shift a budget, an existing budget than to create new budget. Right? So, like, if they're like, oh, I don't have a very big paid budget. Okay. Well, you must have some paid budget. Right? You probably spend on meta ads, Google Ads. What else are you spending on? Could we take, like, $2,000 of your paid budget? And instead of this month spending it on Google Ads? Could we just shift the budget here and do a small test and see if we can actually beat your acquisition costs on that other channel. Right? And if you're able to really talk on that level, brands are extremely impressed with that because, again, not very many people that they're in conversation with come to the table with that level of strategy. Mhmm. Typically, in that first email or 2, like, we've already established what our audience assets are. So they have a pretty pitch. Yeah. They it's part of the pitch, so they have a clear understanding of, like, what the estimated reach could be for certain channels. But, honestly, audience is, like, where a lot of people get hung up. But, I mean, Nicole, you you might remember this, from my brand partnerships retreat, but I always talk about how content content, distribution, which is essentially audience, is only 1 third of the equation of what brands are paying you for. You're getting paid for whenever you do a campaign with a brand. You're getting paid for content creation, content distribution, and then content endorsement. Those are 3 different things. Creation is literally just the process of the deliverable itself. Right? For example, like, even today, like, as we're sitting here talking, we have these amazing people, like, filming. That is a cost. You had to pay videographers to be here, right, and and have this content recorded. Same thing for a brand. If they're working with you any capacity, the alternative to hiring you and all the roles that you play, videographer, script writer, producer, set like, the set design, the costume you wear, makeup, hair, all talent, that's its own thing. Right? If you think about every piece of content you create, almost the same as people think about making a film or making a music video, think about all of the different roles that are involved in producing something like that. Brands have to find a way to pay for those individual roles if they're not going to get an all in one through you. So that alone has value even if your audience size was 0. Right? So that's something you have to account for right off the get go no matter what your audience size is. Then your audience distribution, yes, of course, the larger your distribution, the more leverage you have to charge more. But, again, that's only 1 third of the equation. And then the last thing is endorsement, and that's the personal brand equity that you have built over the years in your industry in a way that if a face less person who nobody knows says, hey. I really recommend this service. It comes across different than if the foremost expert in that industry says, I really think you guys should do this. There is a different weight to that recommendation and that endorsement has monetary value. So you have to think about that too when you're coming up with your prices for brands. All three of those factors need to be included in the final cost. So good. So good. Okay. So you have also, spent some time with our Thrive ladies and you've heard us talk about burnout, you know, falling out of love with your business, not not knowing that next move. What are some ways or what? Like 2 questions, I guess 2 parts. So have you ever fallen out of love with your business and been like, I want to sell this thing or burn it to the ground? Yeah. And then but 2, like, how are you staying, like, inspired and motivated? What what, like, brought you back to life essentially? Well, actually, it's funny you mentioned that because I just worked with Matt Button and Matt Smith at Worth, to do a formal valuation of my business this year. And I highly recommend that service or that practice to anyone regardless of whether you wanna sell in 10 years, you maybe never wanna sell, or you're, like, in in the immediate future, this is something I would highly consider because it it opened my eyes to so many things about my business. Like, what actually makes it valuable as an entity outside of myself? What are some areas that I'm weaker in that if I were to improve upon, it would actually make our business more valuable. So I think having that knowledge is really helpful regardless of the timeline of whether you're going to sell or not. So for me, you know, my end goal is to sell Keepical to CEO. I do want to sell this company eventually. I'm not on a strict timeline as to when that happens, which allows, you know, a lot more freedom and flexibility. But I would say, like, when I get into burnout, it's usually because I'm forcing myself to do something that I think I should do because I'm good at it, not necessarily because good. Right? Not necessarily because I actually like it. I think a lot of us can become very proficient necessarily mean that's the right thing for you. So, you know, all of my pivots, for example, like, going from agency model to education model, I was we are I mean, our agency had so much momentum. We could have scaled that thing so big if we wanted to. But it came to this thing where I was like, just because I'm good at getting clients and getting people to pay these great retainers for this this service doesn't mean I actually enjoy doing that. And I would rather spend all of that creative energy that I poured into these other people's brands into building my own brand. And so I had to come to terms with the fact that, yes, making that change would slice revenue and wouldn't allow me to, again, have hockey stick growth. And I've sacrificed over the last 6 years in business many, many opportunities to have scaled much bigger because I chose to do something that I would actually enjoy more. And it's a sacrifice. Right? Because it it depends. Like, it depends on what's more important to you in that moment, and there's no right or wrong answer there. But you have to be at peace with whatever direction you go. And so and and the same even with education arm. Right? Like, if we had not pivoted to media for the last 2 years, I think our digital products would be so much further along than we are at the at the moment, but I I made that sacrifice and you you have to be okay with honoring, like, what lights you up. And for me, it's anything in that creative space. And I'm a very because I'm so experimental, I I don't I have a really hard time just, like, doing the same thing over and over again, and I think I'm only really beginning to come to peace with this this fact that, like, my path might look a little chaotic to other people, but no one has to live that path except for me every day. Right? So I should honor that. I love that. We run like parallels. I feel like we are the same person. The fact of I also have a studio too as well. So we didn't go the co working route. But again, like, during that time, I remember the first day I saw it saw it. We ended up leasing it, did the whole thing, had the agency, scaled the agency back down. So I feel like we've, like, run, like, the same life. It's like something happens and it's, like, you know, fail forward. Fail forward. But I really love that though because I think for a lot of you here too, like we've had these conversations before, you know. I know, Kaye, we've talked about this. Like we've had these conversations of like, wow. Like for a lot of the women in here, like either a, they've been doing this since their corporate days or they're professionally trained in this thing. And sometimes we feel like, okay, like we have to stick to this just because, like, we're good at it. Yeah. You know? And then it's hard to leave behind that revenue, but really, like, your heart is like, no. I actually, like, really wanna do this. So either late 2019 or or early 2020, one of those 2. My audience at that time, it is hard to I wanna say on Instagram, it was maybe 19, 20000 or so email list. I honestly don't remember. Like, maybe 15,000 or so on our email list. But I really, really wanna drive home the fact that audience size is has never been the defining catalyst list of what we've been able to book in brand campaigns. Just case in point, I spoke at a conference where this person came up to me. He's a giant YouTuber, 5,000,000 plus subscribers. He had never been able to secure a brand deal for more than, like,$1,000 Wow. With 5,000,000 subscribers and had nothing to do with his audience size. I it was all about the approach. Right? Like, we've been able to land $40,000 campaigns on an audience size that is far, far less than some of our peers who have never been able to land that. And so I I wouldn't focus too heavily on that. It's really about, again, deeply understanding what the brand would define as a successful outcome and being able to actually come up with the execution to deliver on that. That's what they really are looking for. I like that. I have a question though and this is just more for transparency to show, like, what's possible. And you don't have to go into specific brands, but, like, what is, I guess, like, the smallest and the largest, like, campaign that, like, you've done just to show, like, like, this is possible for all of us here. Like, what does that look like? My first ever brand deal was $300. It was not a lot. It was actually really a random random campaign. It was with, like, a, virtual reality of VR headset. It was like it was so it was actually really fun to, like, like, create the content for it, and it was great practice, right, to, like, just work with the brands. And the largest we've ever done in a single campaign was$40,000. Some of our other partners have probably paid more than that because they've been recurring over time, but, like, in a single campaign, that was the largest. That's incredible. Thank you. That is incredible. And it just, like, goes to show you that, like, if you have this idea and vision, like, you can create that and bring it to life too. So when I initially approach a brand, if I don't have a preexisting relationship with them, I never, out the gate, suggest any sort of specific package or deliverables. Never ever. All I do is I will call out, like, a specific initiative that I'm observing that they're either launching or working on or whatever it may be, and I bring, like, a specific idea to the table. So for example, like, that grant example, right, that I gave, I might come to the table and say, hey. I I you know, I've noticed that you really are wanting to get in front of this audience more. I think we could really send you a large injection of leads in a short time period because that that's always like magic to their ears, right, in a single week with us, you know, with this idea that I have, like, would you be open to exploring this idea further? Right? So it's it's really about just asking a simple question that gets them to say, yes. Like, let's just keep having this conversation in some way. I also will, you know, usually bring in something like, would would do you like to get in front of, you know, a 100000 women in business? Like, ask a question that is so unbelievably, like, irresistible that they would be stupid to say no to it. Right? Like, why would why would they not if I was like, hey. I think your prod I've been using your product. I love it. I think our audience, would really be able to run with this. Would you let can I introduce your product to our community of a 100000 women in business? Why would they reply and say no to that? That doesn't make any sense. Right? So, like, you kind of have to think about your pitch like that. Like, how can I say in such a way that there's no other answer but yes? Yeah. And on that note where you shared, you know, that in your email, you would say, oh, would you like to drive these leads with this idea? Are you sharing the idea in the initial email? So no concern of, like, what if they take your idea. No. Because, like, usually, my idea is much more detailed than the 2 sentence, like, high level description. It's really more of, like, yeah, just the the concept of it is what I'm trying to get across, but the details of how it would be executed are different. And, again, the brand doesn't have the same audience that we do. So there's a reason they're willing to pay for partnerships because the difference between spending $5,000 on Instagram ads versus $5,000 in a brand partnership is that with a brand partnership, you are again getting in front of a very specific niche audience, but the voice through which you're presenting your offer is a voice that that audience already trust and has a relationship with, which is completely different than if they spend $5,000 on Instagram ads because they're reaching random people that have no preexisting relationship with the brand that's showing up. Right? It's a disruption rather than like a invitation. Love that. This is incredible. Thank you so much. Let's give her a round.